Interview with Heather Augustyn

Tom Winchester: Please describe your approach to research. How long were you researching this book? Where did you travel? How did you conduct interviews?

Heather Augustyn: I was a journalist for 12 years and have been an academic for 8 years so my approach to research is a mix of both. When I began writing, there wasn't anything written about this subject—no books to speak of, so I interviewed people. That became the core of my work, and then I would supplement with newspaper articles from this period from archives. I researched for two years before writing this book, which is fairly typical for me.

I have traveled to Kingston five times, but that was mainly to access the newspaper archives which are not digitized. The interviews I largely conducted over the phone and all of my interviews are available to researchers or the public via the Archives of African American Music and Culture at Indiana University where I have donated them for future use.

TW: You emphasize the impact of jazz on Jamaican music, including its influence on ska. You point out that the majority of ska songs from 1959-1965 are predominantly instrumentals. You also say that Millie Small day at the New York world’s fair in 1964 brought ska full circle with the performances by the biggest names in jazz. Your discussion recognizes Jamaican genres for their musicality, and gives proper respect to the history of musicianship in Jamaica.

HA: Yes to all of these statements! Jazz is the foundation of all of it and as such lies under the musical forms. There is a theme and variation form to many ska songs in the early years—listen to any Skatalites song. Millie Small, to be fair, was a pop artist, not jazz, but she came from this tradition in that she wouldn't exist had jazz not been part of the music to begin with.

TW: Your point of view is one of empowerment toward the women you write about. You approach the sexism and misogyny of the music industry with empathy toward what these women endured, and still endure. You make a point of how Don’t Touch My Tomato by Phyllis Dillon took control of her sexuality, and you compare it to “today’s culture of slackness and twerking.” You write that Lady Saw was not just “the subject of the male gaze, she was the voice of the female expression.” You give the women the power.

HA: Thank you! Yes, I feel that these women were expected to be a certain way: sing sweet love songs, songs that glorified men, etc., and so they defied these expectations to the extreme with their voice and expression and art. I love that! Hell yes!

And I find it so shallow when some people cast scorn, calling them derogatory names for expressing their sexuality—it proves the point! They are literally saying, you can't have that voice. You are a slut or you are a loose woman. That's the point! By expressing themselves they are saying, you cannot label me, I can only label me because this is MY space!

TW: Your style of writing interviews includes asides like “[laughs].” It gives the impression that you really enjoyed this research process, and that you really like these people. It’s a poetic approach to the written interview.

HA: Thank you! The role of the emoji in our culture is to show emotion that escapes words. In the same way, my [laugh] tries to do that: recapture some of the emotion of the conversation. The laugh especially I feel needs to be expressed and contained and felt by the reader. I want the reader to feel like they're there! YES I loved talking to these beautiful people! And I'm so glad you see that. I want the reader to see that too—see who these people are as human beings, not just musicians.

TW: The themes of the book start with folk traditions and a succession of biographies of musicians. Then, you go into the women behind the scenes with biographies of producers and businesswomen. The last few chapters offer the more personal side to the story with the chapters titled Champions and Mothers and Wives. The final chapter is a critical response to representation in songs. What inspired the book’s progression?

HA: Well, part of it, starting with folk, is chronological. The folk tradition is the basis—music of the earth, music of the people. From there, the other genres are built. With the biographies, it was hard to categorized them into genres, as I discuss, because many women cross genres, but I guess it's the Linneaus in me where I felt the need to categorize to help contain the enormity of the subject matter, so it was a little easier to contain.

And the mothers and wives, I realized that people like Coxsone and Byron Lee, etc. get all the credit but holy cow was it ever a partnership! That deserved a chapter, I felt. The final chapter is just something I felt passionate about after listening to lyrics that offend me! [Laughs]

TW: You make the point that Lover’s Rock was seductive without being abusive toward women because more women were involved in the songwriting. You end the book with a paragraph about how none of the worst themes in Jamaican music appear in songs written by women. In essence, you’re advocating for more women songwriters in today’s Jamaican-inspired genres.

HA: Whooohoo! Yes! Wouldn't that be a wonderful outcome! Certainly that road has been paved by these pioneers. So Much Things to Say…by women! Think of all the content women could address in their music. Lyrics about raising children, lyrics about the earth, lyrics about nourishing the spirit, lyrics about the gifts of ancestors, it goes on and on.

TW: Because they were never properly compensated for their singing, Yvonne Harrison and Patsy Todd both moved to the US and had careers where no one knew of their music. You write that Sonia Pottinger wasn’t written about as a producer, but instead was always described by the details of what she was wearing. The last chapter is a critical argument for proper recognition for these women, including the recouping of unpaid wages.

HA: Thank you, yes, I believe this strongly. We all should know by now that few musicians in Jamaican music were compensated properly for their contributions, as well as those in many other countries and genres. But women in particular were exploited because it was expected that women be meek and sweet and not complain. When Hortense Ellis spoke up, to get her pay, she was seen as difficult and it hurt her career. So other women, to keep opportunity coming, kept quiet. And that is wrong. Recognition is the first step. Evolution is the second.